steam engine in britches, very short, ferocious northern democrat, 35 years old, the marker revealed by the state perhaps did what clay had not done. he did the numbers. in other words, there were enough combinations of votes in the senate to pass a different price of clay's compromise, but not all at once, so he passed six separate bills using different combinations. so the lesson is persuasion is necessary and imperative. if you don't do the numbers, you won't succeed. these two men together symbiotically succeeded. >> host: were speaking with fergus bordewich, author of "america's great debate: henry clay, stephen a. douglas, and the compromise that preserved the union."